Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Au contraire, mon frère! 1. The evidence available from the CDC at the time the order was given showed that the vaccines were largely *ineffective*. By the time the military mandate was signed on August 24, 2021, data from* the CDC and international partners had already confirmed that the vaccines were failing to prevent infection and transmission. *Here is what was specifically known at that time: *The "Provincetown" Revelation (July 2021)* Weeks before the mandate, the CDC released a report on a July 4th outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, finding that *74%* of the COVID-19 cases in the outbreak occurred in *fully vaccinated* individuals. The study also revealed that vaccinated people carried *the same viral load* in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people. This proved definitively that vaccinated individuals could transmit the virus just as easily as the unvaccinated. *CDC Admitted They Could Not Stop Transmission* Because of the Provincetown data, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky went on television in early August 2021 and publicly admitted that the vaccines could no longer prevent transmission. On August 5, 2021, Walensky stated on CNN: *"... what [the vaccines] can't do anymore is prevent transmission."* *Israel’s "Crystal Ball" (Waning Efficacy)* Interestingly, Israel, which had vaccinated its population faster than any other nation, was serving as the world's early warning system. By August 2021, their data was showing a catastrophic drop in protection against infection. In July and August 2021, Israeli Ministry of Health data showed that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness against *infection* had dropped to *39%* (down from the promised 95 Israel began administering booster shots in July 2021, proving that the initial "two-dose" regimen was a failure in terms of lasting immunity. The US announced its own plan for boosters on August 18, 2021—six days *before* the military mandate was issued—effectively admitting the primary series was already waning. By the time soldiers were ordered to take the shot to "maintain force readiness," the Pentagon already knew the shot would not prevent those soldiers from getting infected, getting sick, or infecting their unit members. In August 2021, it was widely known by data analysts and health officials that the mRNA vaccines were *"leaky"*—they reduced symptom severity (temporarily) but failed to provide the sterilizing immunity necessary to stop the spread of the virus. The mandate was issued *after* this failure was confirmed. 2. Yes, the Biden administration gave a foolish order that should have been illegal, and punished patriotic Americans who rightfully refused the order, as was later determined in court. Do you want the receipts, Captain? On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:36 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
1. The evidence/research at the time showed the vaccines to be 90 -%+ effective 2. I don’t think politics played a role. Remember this happened under the Biden admin.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 1:33 PM *To: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com>, bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby < regoldsby@msn.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively < mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Was there enough scientific evidence sufficient to have known better available at the time the orders were given to have known better? Were the orders carried out to deliberately conduct a political purge of loyal Americans opposed to Democrat policies?
I am unwilling to jump on your bandwagon, Marc, until these questions can be answered to my satisfaction.
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:24 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
Yup, one of the most precious things in my medical record was my shot record. Since I went to a lot of places the former and now current president called feces holes, the list of vaccinations that I received was long. Sometimes I’d say, I don’t need it ‘cuz I just had it two or three years ago. That excuse fell on deaf ears.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 12:21 PM *To: *'Lou Fifer' <louisfifer@gmail.com>, Marc Liebman < marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *'bruce valley' <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, 'Bruce Engelhardt' < engelharbb@hotmail.com>, 'Rich-Diana Goldsby' <regoldsby@msn.com>, 'Dan' < gator41@allmail.net>, 'Al Shively' <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, 'Jock Brownfield' <coltjock64@gmail.com>, 'Jim Spillman' <flyingator68@gmail.com>, 'James Lowder' <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *RE: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
I recall Desert Storm where I was recalled with my MSC unit for one year. All those deploying to the theater were required to take a ghastly anthrax vaccine as it was anticipated that Sadam Hussain would use biological weapons against our forces. There was no option to decline the vaccine other than being expelled from the armed forces voluntarily or by the UCMJ for disobeying a lawful order. Covid shots fall in the same legal regime, a lawful order.
*From:* Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 26, 2025 12:18 PM *To:* Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc:* bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>; Bruce Engelhardt < engelharbb@hotmail.com>; Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>; Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>; Dan <gator41@allmail.net>; Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>; Jock Brownfield < coltjock64@gmail.com>; Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>; James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Of course you are right, Marc, again. But is so saying, we must face the bigger issues of imposing chemical vaccines on women service members who may be or are pregnant and on any service member who may closet or develop a moral or religious objection to vaccines. I know that we all took our shots as proscribed "back in the day" but unfortunately (or realistically) today's recruits (Officer - Enlisted - Women - Religious) are of different stripes with different needs and sometimes wildly differing points of view.
In many cases in my daily quest to study USN History, I wish for the simpler times of our Fathers' service, but a little voice on my shoulder tells me that we can never relive the past. Thus to hold today's military to locked precedents of expected behavior is likely to face continue strife. I don't like it - and we none can fully appreciate the differences - but our times of service are over, well served, and we are now retired to moaning and opining "on the beach". In that respect it is good that we have this open forum to "cry in our beer" among like-minded friends, and to disagree based on our individual experiences, but in truth we are beyond the efficacy of making anything but observations.
*Lou*
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 8:57 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
All,
I’ll say it again. All your rationale is in hindsight. These men refused to obey a lawful order. Period, end of statement. Everything else is peripheral nonsense.
As such, we all know that in the Navy we have the opportunity to refuse a legal order or a set of orders once. If one does, then resignation or retirement follows.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 10:32 AM *To: *bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt < engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>, Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *Fwd: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
At a time when we need more, and to retain those we have in uniform, the politicos chose the opportunity to make a silly stand against our military with no concern for the welfare of our uniformed services or the defense of our country. This is another example of the bottomless Dem-Lib-Left perfidy and self-centered grasping at anything to stay in power.
I hope the Secretaries of our Service Branches take up this stupid miscarriage of power and quickly re-sign all those who chose personal well being over the blanket mandate to take the worthless Covid shots. We now know that the shots were naught but a means to control our country through local mandates and censures of citizens.
What has become of our Republic when such political ne're do wells are empowered or not restrained from taking unwarranted actions against our citizens?
*Lou*
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: *Brian Miller* <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> Date: Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 4:07 AM Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate To: <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> Cc: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com>
It was always insane to me that the people in charge, whether in uniform or not, have to struggle through an inept, lazy, and hostile bureaucracy designed to do nothing more than stand in the way.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:00 PM <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> wrote:
'I tasked in no uncertain terms to the services that they will treat each of the members with the dignity that they deserve,' War Undersecretary Anthony Tata told The Federalist. https://thefederalist.com/2025/11/25/exclusive-war-dept-battles-internal-res...
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
--
Best regards,
Jim
-- Best regards, Jim
Well spoken, and documented, Jim. *Lou* On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 5:36 PM James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> wrote:
Au contraire, mon frère!
1. The evidence available from the CDC at the time the order was given showed that the vaccines were largely *ineffective*. By the time the military mandate was signed on August 24, 2021, data from* the CDC and international partners had already confirmed that the vaccines were failing to prevent infection and transmission. *Here is what was specifically known at that time:
*The "Provincetown" Revelation (July 2021)*
Weeks before the mandate, the CDC released a report on a July 4th outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, finding that *74%* of the COVID-19 cases in the outbreak occurred in *fully vaccinated* individuals. The study also revealed that vaccinated people carried *the same viral load* in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people. This proved definitively that vaccinated individuals could transmit the virus just as easily as the unvaccinated. *CDC Admitted They Could Not Stop Transmission*
Because of the Provincetown data, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky went on television in early August 2021 and publicly admitted that the vaccines could no longer prevent transmission. On August 5, 2021, Walensky stated on CNN: *"... what [the vaccines] can't do anymore is prevent transmission."*
*Israel’s "Crystal Ball" (Waning Efficacy)* Interestingly, Israel, which had vaccinated its population faster than any other nation, was serving as the world's early warning system. By August 2021, their data was showing a catastrophic drop in protection against infection. In July and August 2021, Israeli Ministry of Health data showed that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness against *infection* had dropped to *39%* (down from the promised 95 Israel began administering booster shots in July 2021, proving that the initial "two-dose" regimen was a failure in terms of lasting immunity. The US announced its own plan for boosters on August 18, 2021—six days *before* the military mandate was issued—effectively admitting the primary series was already waning.
By the time soldiers were ordered to take the shot to "maintain force readiness," the Pentagon already knew the shot would not prevent those soldiers from getting infected, getting sick, or infecting their unit members. In August 2021, it was widely known by data analysts and health officials that the mRNA vaccines were *"leaky"*—they reduced symptom severity (temporarily) but failed to provide the sterilizing immunity necessary to stop the spread of the virus. The mandate was issued *after* this failure was confirmed.
2. Yes, the Biden administration gave a foolish order that should have been illegal, and punished patriotic Americans who rightfully refused the order, as was later determined in court.
Do you want the receipts, Captain?
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:36 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
1. The evidence/research at the time showed the vaccines to be 90 -%+ effective 2. I don’t think politics played a role. Remember this happened under the Biden admin.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 1:33 PM *To: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com>, bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby < regoldsby@msn.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively < mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Was there enough scientific evidence sufficient to have known better available at the time the orders were given to have known better? Were the orders carried out to deliberately conduct a political purge of loyal Americans opposed to Democrat policies?
I am unwilling to jump on your bandwagon, Marc, until these questions can be answered to my satisfaction.
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:24 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
Yup, one of the most precious things in my medical record was my shot record. Since I went to a lot of places the former and now current president called feces holes, the list of vaccinations that I received was long. Sometimes I’d say, I don’t need it ‘cuz I just had it two or three years ago. That excuse fell on deaf ears.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 12:21 PM *To: *'Lou Fifer' <louisfifer@gmail.com>, Marc Liebman < marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *'bruce valley' <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, 'Bruce Engelhardt' < engelharbb@hotmail.com>, 'Rich-Diana Goldsby' <regoldsby@msn.com>, 'Dan' <gator41@allmail.net>, 'Al Shively' <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, 'Jock Brownfield' <coltjock64@gmail.com>, 'Jim Spillman' < flyingator68@gmail.com>, 'James Lowder' <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *RE: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
I recall Desert Storm where I was recalled with my MSC unit for one year. All those deploying to the theater were required to take a ghastly anthrax vaccine as it was anticipated that Sadam Hussain would use biological weapons against our forces. There was no option to decline the vaccine other than being expelled from the armed forces voluntarily or by the UCMJ for disobeying a lawful order. Covid shots fall in the same legal regime, a lawful order.
*From:* Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 26, 2025 12:18 PM *To:* Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc:* bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>; Bruce Engelhardt < engelharbb@hotmail.com>; Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>; Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>; Dan <gator41@allmail.net>; Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>; Jock Brownfield < coltjock64@gmail.com>; Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>; James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Of course you are right, Marc, again. But is so saying, we must face the bigger issues of imposing chemical vaccines on women service members who may be or are pregnant and on any service member who may closet or develop a moral or religious objection to vaccines. I know that we all took our shots as proscribed "back in the day" but unfortunately (or realistically) today's recruits (Officer - Enlisted - Women - Religious) are of different stripes with different needs and sometimes wildly differing points of view.
In many cases in my daily quest to study USN History, I wish for the simpler times of our Fathers' service, but a little voice on my shoulder tells me that we can never relive the past. Thus to hold today's military to locked precedents of expected behavior is likely to face continue strife. I don't like it - and we none can fully appreciate the differences - but our times of service are over, well served, and we are now retired to moaning and opining "on the beach". In that respect it is good that we have this open forum to "cry in our beer" among like-minded friends, and to disagree based on our individual experiences, but in truth we are beyond the efficacy of making anything but observations.
*Lou*
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 8:57 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
All,
I’ll say it again. All your rationale is in hindsight. These men refused to obey a lawful order. Period, end of statement. Everything else is peripheral nonsense.
As such, we all know that in the Navy we have the opportunity to refuse a legal order or a set of orders once. If one does, then resignation or retirement follows.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 10:32 AM *To: *bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt < engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>, Marc Liebman < marc@marcliebman.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively < mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *Fwd: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
At a time when we need more, and to retain those we have in uniform, the politicos chose the opportunity to make a silly stand against our military with no concern for the welfare of our uniformed services or the defense of our country. This is another example of the bottomless Dem-Lib-Left perfidy and self-centered grasping at anything to stay in power.
I hope the Secretaries of our Service Branches take up this stupid miscarriage of power and quickly re-sign all those who chose personal well being over the blanket mandate to take the worthless Covid shots. We now know that the shots were naught but a means to control our country through local mandates and censures of citizens.
What has become of our Republic when such political ne're do wells are empowered or not restrained from taking unwarranted actions against our citizens?
*Lou*
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: *Brian Miller* <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> Date: Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 4:07 AM Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate To: <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> Cc: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com>
It was always insane to me that the people in charge, whether in uniform or not, have to struggle through an inept, lazy, and hostile bureaucracy designed to do nothing more than stand in the way.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:00 PM <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> wrote:
'I tasked in no uncertain terms to the services that they will treat each of the members with the dignity that they deserve,' War Undersecretary Anthony Tata told The Federalist. https://thefederalist.com/2025/11/25/exclusive-war-dept-battles-internal-res...
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
--
Best regards,
Jim
-- Best regards, Jim
I don’t recall the services ever saying the Vaccine was being issued to stop all infection. My recollection is the vaccine was ordered to reduce the severity of Covid symptoms and reduce anticipated death and crew degradation rates. In the heat of every battle information available to Commanders comes in all shades of “guaranteed, proven, no possible doubt, best intell” of which very little actually is. You make a decision and give the legal orders, if some don’t follow the orders they must be removed to protect the plan. In hindsight the plan may have been half baked but the orders were legal, failure to obey was not. W/r, AL Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS On Wednesday, November 26, 2025, 5:41 PM, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> wrote: Well spoken, and documented, Jim. Lou On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 5:36 PM James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> wrote: Au contraire, mon frère! 1. The evidence available from the CDC at the time the order was given showed that the vaccines were largely ineffective. By the time the military mandate was signed on August 24, 2021, data from the CDC and international partners had already confirmed that the vaccines were failing to prevent infection and transmission. Here is what was specifically known at that time: The "Provincetown" Revelation (July 2021) Weeks before the mandate, the CDC released a report on a July 4th outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, finding that 74% of the COVID-19 cases in the outbreak occurred in fully vaccinated individuals. The study also revealed that vaccinated people carried the same viral load in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people. This proved definitively that vaccinated individuals could transmit the virus just as easily as the unvaccinated. CDC Admitted They Could Not Stop Transmission Because of the Provincetown data, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky went on television in early August 2021 and publicly admitted that the vaccines could no longer prevent transmission. On August 5, 2021, Walensky stated on CNN: "... what [the vaccines] can't do anymore is prevent transmission." Israel’s "Crystal Ball" (Waning Efficacy) Interestingly, Israel, which had vaccinated its population faster than any other nation, was serving as the world's early warning system. By August 2021, their data was showing a catastrophic drop in protection against infection. In July and August 2021, Israeli Ministry of Health data showed that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness against infection had dropped to 39% (down from the promised 95 Israel began administering booster shots in July 2021, proving that the initial "two-dose" regimen was a failure in terms of lasting immunity. The US announced its own plan for boosters on August 18, 2021—six days before the military mandate was issued—effectively admitting the primary series was already waning. By the time soldiers were ordered to take the shot to "maintain force readiness," the Pentagon already knew the shot would not prevent those soldiers from getting infected, getting sick, or infecting their unit members. In August 2021, it was widely known by data analysts and health officials that the mRNA vaccines were "leaky"—they reduced symptom severity (temporarily) but failed to provide the sterilizing immunity necessary to stop the spread of the virus. The mandate was issued after this failure was confirmed. 2. Yes, the Biden administration gave a foolish order that should have been illegal, and punished patriotic Americans who rightfully refused the order, as was later determined in court. Do you want the receipts, Captain? On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:36 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote: - The evidence/research at the time showed the vaccines to be 90 -%+ effective - I don’t think politics played a role. Remember this happened under the Biden admin. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From:James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 1:33 PM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> Cc: "douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com>, bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate Was there enough scientific evidence sufficient to have known better available at the time the orders were given to have known better? Were the orders carried out to deliberately conduct a political purge of loyal Americans opposed to Democrat policies? I am unwilling to jump on your bandwagon, Marc, until these questions can be answered to my satisfaction. On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:24 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote: Yup, one of the most precious things in my medical record was my shot record. Since I went to a lot of places the former and now current president called feces holes, the list of vaccinations that I received was long. Sometimes I’d say, I don’t need it ‘cuz I just had it two or three years ago. That excuse fell on deaf ears. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From:"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 12:21 PM To: 'Lou Fifer' <louisfifer@gmail.com>, Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> Cc: 'bruce valley' <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, 'Bruce Engelhardt' <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, 'Rich-Diana Goldsby' <regoldsby@msn.com>, 'Dan' <gator41@allmail.net>, 'Al Shively' <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, 'Jock Brownfield' <coltjock64@gmail.com>, 'Jim Spillman' <flyingator68@gmail.com>, 'James Lowder' <lowderjf@gmail.com> Subject: RE: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate I recall Desert Storm where I was recalled with my MSC unit for one year. All those deploying to the theater were required to take a ghastly anthrax vaccine as it was anticipated that Sadam Hussain would use biological weapons against our forces. There was no option to decline the vaccine other than being expelled from the armed forces voluntarily or by the UCMJ for disobeying a lawful order. Covid shots fall in the same legal regime, a lawful order. From: Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2025 12:18 PM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> Cc: bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>; Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>; Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>; Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>; Dan <gator41@allmail.net>; Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>; Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>; Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>; James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate Of course you are right, Marc, again. But is so saying, we must face the bigger issues of imposing chemical vaccines on women service members who may be or are pregnant and on any service member who may closet or develop a moral or religious objection to vaccines. I know that we all took our shots as proscribed "back in the day" but unfortunately (or realistically) today's recruits (Officer - Enlisted - Women - Religious) are of different stripes with different needs and sometimes wildly differing points of view. In many cases in my daily quest to study USN History, I wish for the simpler times of our Fathers' service, but a little voice on my shoulder tells me that we can never relive the past. Thus to hold today's military to locked precedents of expected behavior is likely to face continue strife. I don't like it - and we none can fully appreciate the differences - but our times of service are over, well served, and we are now retired to moaning and opining "on the beach". In that respect it is good that we have this open forum to "cry in our beer" among like-minded friends, and to disagree based on our individual experiences, but in truth we are beyond the efficacy of making anything but observations. Lou On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 8:57 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote: All, I’ll say it again. All your rationale is in hindsight. These men refused to obey a lawful order. Period, end of statement. Everything else is peripheral nonsense. As such, we all know that in the Navy we have the opportunity to refuse a legal order or a set of orders once. If one does, then resignation or retirement follows. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From:Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 10:32 AM To: bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>, Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> Subject: Fwd: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate At a time when we need more, and to retain those we have in uniform, the politicos chose the opportunity to make a silly stand against our military with no concern for the welfare of our uniformed services or the defense of our country. This is another example of the bottomless Dem-Lib-Left perfidy and self-centered grasping at anything to stay in power. I hope the Secretaries of our Service Branches take up this stupid miscarriage of power and quickly re-sign all those who chose personal well being over the blanket mandate to take the worthless Covid shots. We now know that the shots were naught but a means to control our country through local mandates and censures of citizens. What has become of our Republic when such political ne're do wells are empowered or not restrained from taking unwarranted actions against our citizens? Lou ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Brian Miller <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> Date: Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 4:07 AM Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate To: <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> Cc: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> It was always insane to me that the people in charge, whether in uniform or not, have to struggle through an inept, lazy, and hostile bureaucracy designed to do nothing more than stand in the way. On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:00 PM <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> wrote: 'I tasked in no uncertain terms to the services that they will treat each of the members with the dignity that they deserve,' War Undersecretary Anthony Tata told The Federalist. https://thefederalist.com/2025/11/25/exclusive-war-dept-battles-internal-res... _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com -- Best regards, Jim -- Best regards,Jim _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
Absolutely. A legal order is a legal order. You can either obey or resign or retire. Period, end of discussion. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: "ahaefner@aol.com" <ahaefner@aol.com> Date: Monday, December 1, 2025 at 4:30 PM To: Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> Cc: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com>, Helobubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate I don’t recall the services ever saying the Vaccine was being issued to stop all infection. My recollection is the vaccine was ordered to reduce the severity of Covid symptoms and reduce anticipated death and crew degradation rates. In the heat of every battle information available to Commanders comes in all shades of “guaranteed, proven, no possible doubt, best intell” of which very little actually is. You make a decision and give the legal orders, if some don’t follow the orders they must be removed to protect the plan. In hindsight the plan may have been half baked but the orders were legal, failure to obey was not. W/r, AL Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS<https://aolapp.onelink.me/eG2g?pid=NativePlacement&c=US_Acquisition_YMktg_320_EmailSignature_AttributionDL&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=US_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100002473&af_sub5=SentFromNewAOLApp__Interstitial_&af_ios_store_cpp=ce85ce34-ad0f-4811-a92b-a172743b064e&af_android_url=https%3A%2F%2Fplay.google.com%2Fstore%2Fapps%2Fdetails%3Fid%3Dcom.aol.mobile.aolapp%26listing%3Demail_signature_attribution> On Wednesday, November 26, 2025, 5:41 PM, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> wrote: Well spoken, and documented, Jim. Lou On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 5:36 PM James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com<mailto:lowderjf@gmail.com>> wrote: Au contraire, mon frère! 1. The evidence available from the CDC at the time the order was given showed that the vaccines were largely ineffective. By the time the military mandate was signed on August 24, 2021, data from the CDC and international partners had already confirmed that the vaccines were failing to prevent infection and transmission. Here is what was specifically known at that time: The "Provincetown" Revelation (July 2021) Weeks before the mandate, the CDC released a report on a July 4th outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, finding that 74% of the COVID-19 cases in the outbreak occurred in fully vaccinated individuals. The study also revealed that vaccinated people carried the same viral load in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people. This proved definitively that vaccinated individuals could transmit the virus just as easily as the unvaccinated. CDC Admitted They Could Not Stop Transmission Because of the Provincetown data, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky went on television in early August 2021 and publicly admitted that the vaccines could no longer prevent transmission. On August 5, 2021, Walensky stated on CNN: "... what [the vaccines] can't do anymore is prevent transmission." Israel’s "Crystal Ball" (Waning Efficacy) Interestingly, Israel, which had vaccinated its population faster than any other nation, was serving as the world's early warning system. By August 2021, their data was showing a catastrophic drop in protection against infection. In July and August 2021, Israeli Ministry of Health data showed that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness against infection had dropped to 39% (down from the promised 95 Israel began administering booster shots in July 2021, proving that the initial "two-dose" regimen was a failure in terms of lasting immunity. The US announced its own plan for boosters on August 18, 2021—six days before the military mandate was issued—effectively admitting the primary series was already waning. By the time soldiers were ordered to take the shot to "maintain force readiness," the Pentagon already knew the shot would not prevent those soldiers from getting infected, getting sick, or infecting their unit members. In August 2021, it was widely known by data analysts and health officials that the mRNA vaccines were "leaky"—they reduced symptom severity (temporarily) but failed to provide the sterilizing immunity necessary to stop the spread of the virus. The mandate was issued after this failure was confirmed. 2. Yes, the Biden administration gave a foolish order that should have been illegal, and punished patriotic Americans who rightfully refused the order, as was later determined in court. Do you want the receipts, Captain? On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:36 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> wrote: 1. The evidence/research at the time showed the vaccines to be 90 -%+ effective 2. I don’t think politics played a role. Remember this happened under the Biden admin. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com<mailto:lowderjf@gmail.com>> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 1:33 PM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> Cc: "douglasburnett1972@gmail.com<mailto:douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com<mailto:douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>>, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com<mailto:louisfifer@gmail.com>>, bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net<mailto:brucevalley@earthlink.net>>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com<mailto:engelharbb@hotmail.com>>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com<mailto:regoldsby@msn.com>>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net<mailto:gator41@allmail.net>>, Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net<mailto:mooseshively@earthlink.net>>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com<mailto:coltjock64@gmail.com>>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com<mailto:flyingator68@gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate Was there enough scientific evidence sufficient to have known better available at the time the orders were given to have known better? Were the orders carried out to deliberately conduct a political purge of loyal Americans opposed to Democrat policies? I am unwilling to jump on your bandwagon, Marc, until these questions can be answered to my satisfaction. On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:24 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> wrote: Yup, one of the most precious things in my medical record was my shot record. Since I went to a lot of places the former and now current president called feces holes, the list of vaccinations that I received was long. Sometimes I’d say, I don’t need it ‘cuz I just had it two or three years ago. That excuse fell on deaf ears. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: "douglasburnett1972@gmail.com<mailto:douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com<mailto:douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 12:21 PM To: 'Lou Fifer' <louisfifer@gmail.com<mailto:louisfifer@gmail.com>>, Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> Cc: 'bruce valley' <brucevalley@earthlink.net<mailto:brucevalley@earthlink.net>>, 'Bruce Engelhardt' <engelharbb@hotmail.com<mailto:engelharbb@hotmail.com>>, 'Rich-Diana Goldsby' <regoldsby@msn.com<mailto:regoldsby@msn.com>>, 'Dan' <gator41@allmail.net<mailto:gator41@allmail.net>>, 'Al Shively' <mooseshively@earthlink.net<mailto:mooseshively@earthlink.net>>, 'Jock Brownfield' <coltjock64@gmail.com<mailto:coltjock64@gmail.com>>, 'Jim Spillman' <flyingator68@gmail.com<mailto:flyingator68@gmail.com>>, 'James Lowder' <lowderjf@gmail.com<mailto:lowderjf@gmail.com>> Subject: RE: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate I recall Desert Storm where I was recalled with my MSC unit for one year. All those deploying to the theater were required to take a ghastly anthrax vaccine as it was anticipated that Sadam Hussain would use biological weapons against our forces. There was no option to decline the vaccine other than being expelled from the armed forces voluntarily or by the UCMJ for disobeying a lawful order. Covid shots fall in the same legal regime, a lawful order. From: Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com<mailto:louisfifer@gmail.com>> Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2025 12:18 PM To: Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> Cc: bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net<mailto:brucevalley@earthlink.net>>; Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com<mailto:engelharbb@hotmail.com>>; Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com<mailto:douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>>; Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com<mailto:regoldsby@msn.com>>; Dan <gator41@allmail.net<mailto:gator41@allmail.net>>; Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net<mailto:mooseshively@earthlink.net>>; Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com<mailto:coltjock64@gmail.com>>; Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com<mailto:flyingator68@gmail.com>>; James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com<mailto:lowderjf@gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate Of course you are right, Marc, again. But is so saying, we must face the bigger issues of imposing chemical vaccines on women service members who may be or are pregnant and on any service member who may closet or develop a moral or religious objection to vaccines. I know that we all took our shots as proscribed "back in the day" but unfortunately (or realistically) today's recruits (Officer - Enlisted - Women - Religious) are of different stripes with different needs and sometimes wildly differing points of view. In many cases in my daily quest to study USN History, I wish for the simpler times of our Fathers' service, but a little voice on my shoulder tells me that we can never relive the past. Thus to hold today's military to locked precedents of expected behavior is likely to face continue strife. I don't like it - and we none can fully appreciate the differences - but our times of service are over, well served, and we are now retired to moaning and opining "on the beach". In that respect it is good that we have this open forum to "cry in our beer" among like-minded friends, and to disagree based on our individual experiences, but in truth we are beyond the efficacy of making anything but observations. Lou On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 8:57 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>> wrote: All, I’ll say it again. All your rationale is in hindsight. These men refused to obey a lawful order. Period, end of statement. Everything else is peripheral nonsense. As such, we all know that in the Navy we have the opportunity to refuse a legal order or a set of orders once. If one does, then resignation or retirement follows. Marc Liebman https://www.marcliebman.com https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g From: Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com<mailto:louisfifer@gmail.com>> Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 10:32 AM To: bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net<mailto:brucevalley@earthlink.net>>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com<mailto:engelharbb@hotmail.com>>, Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com<mailto:douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com<mailto:regoldsby@msn.com>>, Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com<mailto:marc@marcliebman.com>>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net<mailto:gator41@allmail.net>>, Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net<mailto:mooseshively@earthlink.net>>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com<mailto:coltjock64@gmail.com>>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com<mailto:flyingator68@gmail.com>>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com<mailto:lowderjf@gmail.com>> Subject: Fwd: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate At a time when we need more, and to retain those we have in uniform, the politicos chose the opportunity to make a silly stand against our military with no concern for the welfare of our uniformed services or the defense of our country. This is another example of the bottomless Dem-Lib-Left perfidy and self-centered grasping at anything to stay in power. I hope the Secretaries of our Service Branches take up this stupid miscarriage of power and quickly re-sign all those who chose personal well being over the blanket mandate to take the worthless Covid shots. We now know that the shots were naught but a means to control our country through local mandates and censures of citizens. What has become of our Republic when such political ne're do wells are empowered or not restrained from taking unwarranted actions against our citizens? Lou ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Brian Miller <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com<mailto:brianjmiller1977@gmail.com>> Date: Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 4:07 AM Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate To: <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>> Cc: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com>> It was always insane to me that the people in charge, whether in uniform or not, have to struggle through an inept, lazy, and hostile bureaucracy designed to do nothing more than stand in the way. On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:00 PM <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com<mailto:mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com>> wrote: 'I tasked in no uncertain terms to the services that they will treat each of the members with the dignity that they deserve,' War Undersecretary Anthony Tata told The Federalist. https://thefederalist.com/2025/11/25/exclusive-war-dept-battles-internal-res... _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com> _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com> -- Best regards, Jim -- Best regards, Jim _______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas@helobubbas.com> To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com<mailto:helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com>
Marc, et al, you receive no argument from me that legal orders must be followed or consequences suffered, including the COVID order, the rescission order a few months later, *and orders to reinstate those who were drummed out for not getting the COVID injection. *Having deployed to Southwest Asia, I received more than my fair share of mandatory vaccinations, and was relieved to have suffered no known side effects. We got paid to take chances. My lament is that the COVID order was so unnecessary and ill advised. There was plenty of evidence to have known better at the time. The COVID mandate may have been technically lawful, strictly speaking, but the SecDef justification was neither honest nor well advised. https://media.defense.gov/2021/Aug/09/2002826254/-1/-1/0/MESSAGE-TO-THE-FORC... The only thing we learned in hindsight was the extreme and heavy-handed political censorship of the truth imposed by the Biden administration. It is not "20/20 hindsight" to keep your eyes and mind open in the moment. In fact, that is exactly what we were paid to do as Naval Officers. If you thought the mRNA injections were either safe or effective, you were not paying attention. On Mon, Dec 1, 2025 at 8:53 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
Absolutely. A legal order is a legal order. You can either obey or resign or retire. Period, end of discussion.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *"ahaefner@aol.com" <ahaefner@aol.com> *Date: *Monday, December 1, 2025 at 4:30 PM *To: *Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Cc: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com>, Helobubbas < helobubbas@helobubbas.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
I don’t recall the services ever saying the Vaccine was being issued to stop all infection. My recollection is the vaccine was ordered to reduce the severity of Covid symptoms and reduce anticipated death and crew degradation rates.
In the heat of every battle information available to Commanders comes in all shades of “guaranteed, proven, no possible doubt, best intell” of which very little actually is. You make a decision and give the legal orders, if some don’t follow the orders they must be removed to protect the plan. In hindsight the plan may have been half baked but the orders were legal, failure to obey was not.
W/r, AL
On Wednesday, November 26, 2025, 5:41 PM, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> wrote:
Well spoken, and documented, Jim.
*Lou*
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 5:36 PM James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> wrote:
Au contraire, mon frère!
1. The evidence available from the CDC at the time the order was given showed that the vaccines were largely *ineffective*. By the time the military mandate was signed on August 24, 2021, data from* the CDC and international partners had already confirmed that the vaccines were failing to prevent infection and transmission. *Here is what was specifically known at that time: The "Provincetown" Revelation (July 2021)
Weeks before the mandate, the CDC released a report on a July 4th outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, finding that *74%* of the COVID-19 cases in the outbreak occurred in *fully vaccinated* individuals. The study also revealed that vaccinated people carried *the same viral load* in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people. This proved definitively that vaccinated individuals could transmit the virus just as easily as the unvaccinated.
*CDC Admitted They Could Not Stop Transmission*
Because of the Provincetown data, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky went on television in early August 2021 and publicly admitted that the vaccines could no longer prevent transmission. On August 5, 2021, Walensky stated on CNN: *"... what [the vaccines] can't do anymore is prevent transmission."*
*Israel’s "Crystal Ball" (Waning Efficacy)*
Interestingly, Israel, which had vaccinated its population faster than any other nation, was serving as the world's early warning system. By August 2021, their data was showing a catastrophic drop in protection against infection. In July and August 2021, Israeli Ministry of Health data showed that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness against *infection* had dropped to *39%* (down from the promised 95 Israel began administering booster shots in July 2021, proving that the initial "two-dose" regimen was a failure in terms of lasting immunity. The US announced its own plan for boosters on August 18, 2021—six days *before* the military mandate was issued—effectively admitting the primary series was already waning.
By the time soldiers were ordered to take the shot to "maintain force readiness," the Pentagon already knew the shot would not prevent those soldiers from getting infected, getting sick, or infecting their unit members. In August 2021, it was widely known by data analysts and health officials that the mRNA vaccines were *"leaky"*—they reduced symptom severity (temporarily) but failed to provide the sterilizing immunity necessary to stop the spread of the virus. The mandate was issued *after* this failure was confirmed.
2. Yes, the Biden administration gave a foolish order that should have been illegal, and punished patriotic Americans who rightfully refused the order, as was later determined in court.
Do you want the receipts, Captain?
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:36 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
1. The evidence/research at the time showed the vaccines to be 90 -%+ effective 2. I don’t think politics played a role. Remember this happened under the Biden admin.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 1:33 PM *To: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com>, bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby < regoldsby@msn.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively < mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Was there enough scientific evidence sufficient to have known better available at the time the orders were given to have known better? Were the orders carried out to deliberately conduct a political purge of loyal Americans opposed to Democrat policies?
I am unwilling to jump on your bandwagon, Marc, until these questions can be answered to my satisfaction.
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:24 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
Yup, one of the most precious things in my medical record was my shot record. Since I went to a lot of places the former and now current president called feces holes, the list of vaccinations that I received was long. Sometimes I’d say, I don’t need it ‘cuz I just had it two or three years ago. That excuse fell on deaf ears.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 12:21 PM *To: *'Lou Fifer' <louisfifer@gmail.com>, Marc Liebman < marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *'bruce valley' <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, 'Bruce Engelhardt' < engelharbb@hotmail.com>, 'Rich-Diana Goldsby' <regoldsby@msn.com>, 'Dan' < gator41@allmail.net>, 'Al Shively' <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, 'Jock Brownfield' <coltjock64@gmail.com>, 'Jim Spillman' <flyingator68@gmail.com>, 'James Lowder' <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *RE: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
I recall Desert Storm where I was recalled with my MSC unit for one year. All those deploying to the theater were required to take a ghastly anthrax vaccine as it was anticipated that Sadam Hussain would use biological weapons against our forces. There was no option to decline the vaccine other than being expelled from the armed forces voluntarily or by the UCMJ for disobeying a lawful order. Covid shots fall in the same legal regime, a lawful order.
*From:* Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 26, 2025 12:18 PM *To:* Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc:* bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>; Bruce Engelhardt < engelharbb@hotmail.com>; Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>; Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>; Dan <gator41@allmail.net>; Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>; Jock Brownfield < coltjock64@gmail.com>; Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>; James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Of course you are right, Marc, again. But is so saying, we must face the bigger issues of imposing chemical vaccines on women service members who may be or are pregnant and on any service member who may closet or develop a moral or religious objection to vaccines. I know that we all took our shots as proscribed "back in the day" but unfortunately (or realistically) today's recruits (Officer - Enlisted - Women - Religious) are of different stripes with different needs and sometimes wildly differing points of view.
In many cases in my daily quest to study USN History, I wish for the simpler times of our Fathers' service, but a little voice on my shoulder tells me that we can never relive the past. Thus to hold today's military to locked precedents of expected behavior is likely to face continue strife. I don't like it - and we none can fully appreciate the differences - but our times of service are over, well served, and we are now retired to moaning and opining "on the beach". In that respect it is good that we have this open forum to "cry in our beer" among like-minded friends, and to disagree based on our individual experiences, but in truth we are beyond the efficacy of making anything but observations.
*Lou*
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 8:57 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
All,
I’ll say it again. All your rationale is in hindsight. These men refused to obey a lawful order. Period, end of statement. Everything else is peripheral nonsense.
As such, we all know that in the Navy we have the opportunity to refuse a legal order or a set of orders once. If one does, then resignation or retirement follows.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 10:32 AM *To: *bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt < engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>, Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *Fwd: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
At a time when we need more, and to retain those we have in uniform, the politicos chose the opportunity to make a silly stand against our military with no concern for the welfare of our uniformed services or the defense of our country. This is another example of the bottomless Dem-Lib-Left perfidy and self-centered grasping at anything to stay in power.
I hope the Secretaries of our Service Branches take up this stupid miscarriage of power and quickly re-sign all those who chose personal well being over the blanket mandate to take the worthless Covid shots. We now know that the shots were naught but a means to control our country through local mandates and censures of citizens.
What has become of our Republic when such political ne're do wells are empowered or not restrained from taking unwarranted actions against our citizens?
*Lou*
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: *Brian Miller* <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> Date: Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 4:07 AM Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate To: <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> Cc: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com>
It was always insane to me that the people in charge, whether in uniform or not, have to struggle through an inept, lazy, and hostile bureaucracy designed to do nothing more than stand in the way.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:00 PM <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> wrote:
'I tasked in no uncertain terms to the services that they will treat each of the members with the dignity that they deserve,' War Undersecretary Anthony Tata told The Federalist. https://thefederalist.com/2025/11/25/exclusive-war-dept-battles-internal-res...
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
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--
Best regards,
Jim
--
Best regards,
Jim
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
-- Best regards, Jim
So I wouldn't look forward to having to serve with the reinstated...knowing you can succeed by refusing orders won't help the majority of members when tough tasks are on the horizon.. A few nights ago watching Ken Burns epic film on US Revolution, and Gen Washington's decision to inoculate troop by actual wound, where they suffered the process, showed courage we all could emulate....over the whining of a few modern imposters.! On 12/1/2025 20:53, Marc Liebman wrote:
Absolutely. A legal order is a legal order. You can either obey or resign or retire. Period, end of discussion.
Marc Liebman
https://www.marcliebman.com <https://www.marcliebman.com>
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ <https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/>
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g>
*From: *"ahaefner@aol.com" <ahaefner@aol.com> *Date: *Monday, December 1, 2025 at 4:30 PM *To: *Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Cc: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com>, Helobubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
I don’t recall the services ever saying the Vaccine was being issued to stop all infection. My recollection is the vaccine was ordered to reduce the severity of Covid symptoms and reduce anticipated death and crew degradation rates.
In the heat of every battle information available to Commanders comes in all shades of “guaranteed, proven, no possible doubt, best intell” of which very little actually is. You make a decision and give the legal orders, if some don’t follow the orders they must be removed to protect the plan. In hindsight the plan may have been half baked but the orders were legal, failure to obey was not.
W/r, AL
On Wednesday, November 26, 2025, 5:41 PM, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> wrote:
Well spoken, and documented, Jim.
*Lou*
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 5:36 PM James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> wrote:
Au contraire, mon frère!
1. The evidence available from the CDC at the time the order was given showed that the vaccines were largely */ineffective/*. By the time the military mandate was signed on August 24, 2021, data from*/the CDC and international partners had already confirmed that the vaccines were failing to prevent infection and transmission. /*Here is what was specifically known at that time:
The "Provincetown" Revelation (July 2021)
Weeks before the mandate, the CDC released a report on a July 4th outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, finding that *74%* of the COVID-19 cases in the outbreak occurred in *fully vaccinated* individuals. The study also revealed that vaccinated people carried *the same viral load* in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people. This proved definitively that vaccinated individuals could transmit the virus just as easily as the unvaccinated.
*CDC Admitted They Could Not Stop Transmission*
Because of the Provincetown data, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky went on television in early August 2021 and publicly admitted that the vaccines could no longer prevent transmission. On August 5, 2021, Walensky stated on CNN: /"... what [the vaccines] can't do anymore is prevent transmission."/
*Israel’s "Crystal Ball" (Waning Efficacy)*
Interestingly, Israel, which had vaccinated its population faster than any other nation, was serving as the world's early warning system. By August 2021, their data was showing a catastrophic drop in protection against infection. In July and August 2021, Israeli Ministry of Health data showed that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness against *infection* had dropped to *39%* (down from the promised 95 Israel began administering booster shots in July 2021, proving that the initial "two-dose" regimen was a failure in terms of lasting immunity. The US announced its own plan for boosters on August 18, 2021—six days /before/ the military mandate was issued—effectively admitting the primary series was already waning.
By the time soldiers were ordered to take the shot to "maintain force readiness," the Pentagon already knew the shot would not prevent those soldiers from getting infected, getting sick, or infecting their unit members. In August 2021, it was widely known by data analysts and health officials that the mRNA vaccines were *"leaky"*—they reduced symptom severity (temporarily) but failed to provide the sterilizing immunity necessary to stop the spread of the virus. The mandate was issued /after/ this failure was confirmed.
2. Yes, the Biden administration gave a foolish order that should have been illegal, and punished patriotic Americans who rightfully refused the order, as was later determined in court.
Do you want the receipts, Captain?
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:36 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
1. The evidence/research at the time showed the vaccines to be 90 -%+ effective 2. I don’t think politics played a role. Remember this happened under the Biden admin.
Marc Liebman
https://www.marcliebman.com <https://www.marcliebman.com>
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ <https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/>
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g>
*From: *James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 1:33 PM *To: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com>, bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Was there enough scientific evidence sufficient to have known better available at the time the orders were given to have known better? Were the orders carried out to deliberately conduct a political purge of loyal Americans opposed to Democrat policies?
I am unwilling to jump on your bandwagon, Marc, until these questions can be answered to my satisfaction.
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:24 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
Yup, one of the most precious things in my medical record was my shot record. Since I went to a lot of places the former and now current president called feces holes, the list of vaccinations that I received was long. Sometimes I’d say, I don’t need it ‘cuz I just had it two or three years ago. That excuse fell on deaf ears.
Marc Liebman
https://www.marcliebman.com <https://www.marcliebman.com>
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ <https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/>
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g>
*From: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 12:21 PM *To: *'Lou Fifer' <louisfifer@gmail.com>, Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *'bruce valley' <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, 'Bruce Engelhardt' <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, 'Rich-Diana Goldsby' <regoldsby@msn.com>, 'Dan' <gator41@allmail.net>, 'Al Shively' <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, 'Jock Brownfield' <coltjock64@gmail.com>, 'Jim Spillman' <flyingator68@gmail.com>, 'James Lowder' <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *RE: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
I recall Desert Storm where I was recalled with my MSC unit for one year. All those deploying to the theater were required to take a ghastly anthrax vaccine as it was anticipated that Sadam Hussain would use biological weapons against our forces. There was no option to decline the vaccine other than being expelled from the armed forces voluntarily or by the UCMJ for disobeying a lawful order. Covid shots fall in the same legal regime, a lawful order.
*From:*Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 26, 2025 12:18 PM *To:* Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc:* bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>; Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>; Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>; Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>; Dan <gator41@allmail.net>; Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>; Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>; Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>; James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Of course you are right, Marc, again. But is so saying, we must face the bigger issues of imposing chemical vaccines on women service members who may be or are pregnant and on any service member who may closet or develop a moral or religious objection to vaccines. I know that we all took our shots as proscribed "back in the day" but unfortunately (or realistically) today's recruits (Officer - Enlisted - Women - Religious) are of different stripes with different needs and sometimes wildly differing points of view.
In many cases in my daily quest to study USN History, I wish for the simpler times of our Fathers' service, but a little voice on my shoulder tells me that we can never relive the past. Thus to hold today's military to locked precedents of expected behavior is likely to face continue strife. I don't like it - and we none can fully appreciate the differences - but our times of service are over, well served, and we are now retired to moaning and opining "on the beach". In that respect it is good that we have this open forum to "cry in our beer" among like-minded friends, and to disagree based on our individual experiences, but in truth we are beyond the efficacy of making anything but observations.
*Lou*
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 8:57 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
All,
I’ll say it again. All your rationale is in hindsight. These men refused to obey a lawful order. Period, end of statement. Everything else is peripheral nonsense.
As such, we all know that in the Navy we have the opportunity to refuse a legal order or a set of orders once. If one does, then resignation or retirement follows.
Marc Liebman
https://www.marcliebman.com <https://www.marcliebman.com>
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/ <https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/>
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g>
*From: *Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 10:32 AM *To: *bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>, Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *Fwd: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
At a time when we need more, and to retain those we have in uniform, the politicos chose the opportunity to make a silly stand against our military with no concern for the welfare of our uniformed services or the defense of our country. This is another example of the bottomless Dem-Lib-Left perfidy and self-centered grasping at anything to stay in power.
I hope the Secretaries of our Service Branches take up this stupid miscarriage of power and quickly re-sign all those who chose personal well being over the blanket mandate to take the worthless Covid shots. We now know that the shots were naught but a means to control our country through local mandates and censures of citizens.
What has become of our Republic when such political ne're do wells are empowered or not restrained from taking unwarranted actions against our citizens?
*Lou*
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: *Brian Miller* <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> Date: Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 4:07 AM Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate To: <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> Cc: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com>
It was always insane to me that the people in charge, whether in uniform or not, have to struggle through an inept, lazy, and hostile bureaucracy designed to do nothing more than stand in the way.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:00 PM <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> wrote:
'I tasked in no uncertain terms to the services that they will treat each of the members with the dignity that they deserve,' War Undersecretary Anthony Tata told The Federalist. https://thefederalist.com/2025/11/25/exclusive-war-dept-battles-internal-res...
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
--
Best regards,
Jim
--
Best regards,
Jim
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list -- helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email to helobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
_______________________________________________ Helobubbas mailing list --helobubbas@helobubbas.com To unsubscribe send an email tohelobubbas-leave@helobubbas.com
-- untitled Harold & Elaine Brattland //// <mailto:habrattland@Comcast.net>//609 Granger Rd, Detroit Lakes MN 56501-4112 Home Phone 218.846.1283, habrattland@Arvig.net | embrattland@Arvig.net <mailto:embrattland@Arvig.net>
*Brothers:* *I, for one, would serve again in a heartbeat with a competent warrior who refused the mRNA vax mandate and either resigned, retired, or fought it forthrightly in court.* On the other hand, I would not be enthusiastic about trusting or serving again with some sad sack in the rear with the gear who never risked life nor limb and sought an exemption to avoid operational risk or responsibility. All orders and all people are not the same. Like you, when I signed my life over to the Constitution I was well aware that the American empire sometimes makes mistakes and that I might be ordered to do something with which I disagreed. We all have agency and must honorably decide on important moral issues for ourselves, and for those we care about. As a retiree, I chose the J&J (non-mRNA) vaccine in 2021, so I could continue to referee. I do not know what I might have done as a service member. Each case must be judged independently, on its own merits. Service members from the Clinton through the Biden administrations have been faced with dozens of moral issues far more egregious than the mandatory COVID policy; for example, supporting the unsavory and corrupt "dancing boys" warlord allies in Afghanistan. *Some of us must agree to disagree on this one issue. So far as I can tell, this is the only important issue on which we disagree. There are plenty of competent aviators who made decisions less aggressive than my own, who nevertheless served honorably and got the mission accomplished. I would serve again with you and with them in a heartbeat!* On Tue, Dec 2, 2025 at 5:31 PM Harold Brattland <habrattland@arvig.net> wrote:
So I wouldn't look forward to having to serve with the reinstated...knowing you can succeed by refusing orders won't help the majority of members when tough tasks are on the horizon.. A few nights ago watching Ken Burns epic film on US Revolution, and Gen Washington's decision to inoculate troop by actual wound, where they suffered the process, showed courage we all could emulate....over the whining of a few modern imposters.!
On 12/1/2025 20:53, Marc Liebman wrote:
Absolutely. A legal order is a legal order. You can either obey or resign or retire. Period, end of discussion.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *"ahaefner@aol.com" <ahaefner@aol.com> <ahaefner@aol.com> <ahaefner@aol.com> *Date: *Monday, December 1, 2025 at 4:30 PM *To: *Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> <louisfifer@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Cc: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> <marc@marcliebman.com>, Helobubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> <helobubbas@helobubbas.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
I don’t recall the services ever saying the Vaccine was being issued to stop all infection. My recollection is the vaccine was ordered to reduce the severity of Covid symptoms and reduce anticipated death and crew degradation rates.
In the heat of every battle information available to Commanders comes in all shades of “guaranteed, proven, no possible doubt, best intell” of which very little actually is. You make a decision and give the legal orders, if some don’t follow the orders they must be removed to protect the plan. In hindsight the plan may have been half baked but the orders were legal, failure to obey was not.
W/r, AL
On Wednesday, November 26, 2025, 5:41 PM, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> <louisfifer@gmail.com> wrote:
Well spoken, and documented, Jim.
*Lou*
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 5:36 PM James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> wrote:
Au contraire, mon frère!
1. The evidence available from the CDC at the time the order was given showed that the vaccines were largely *ineffective*. By the time the military mandate was signed on August 24, 2021, data from* the CDC and international partners had already confirmed that the vaccines were failing to prevent infection and transmission. *Here is what was specifically known at that time: The "Provincetown" Revelation (July 2021)
Weeks before the mandate, the CDC released a report on a July 4th outbreak in Provincetown, Massachusetts, finding that *74%* of the COVID-19 cases in the outbreak occurred in *fully vaccinated* individuals. The study also revealed that vaccinated people carried *the same viral load* in their noses and throats as unvaccinated people. This proved definitively that vaccinated individuals could transmit the virus just as easily as the unvaccinated.
*CDC Admitted They Could Not Stop Transmission*
Because of the Provincetown data, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky went on television in early August 2021 and publicly admitted that the vaccines could no longer prevent transmission. On August 5, 2021, Walensky stated on CNN: *"... what [the vaccines] can't do anymore is prevent transmission."*
*Israel’s "Crystal Ball" (Waning Efficacy)*
Interestingly, Israel, which had vaccinated its population faster than any other nation, was serving as the world's early warning system. By August 2021, their data was showing a catastrophic drop in protection against infection. In July and August 2021, Israeli Ministry of Health data showed that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness against *infection* had dropped to *39%* (down from the promised 95 Israel began administering booster shots in July 2021, proving that the initial "two-dose" regimen was a failure in terms of lasting immunity. The US announced its own plan for boosters on August 18, 2021—six days *before* the military mandate was issued—effectively admitting the primary series was already waning.
By the time soldiers were ordered to take the shot to "maintain force readiness," the Pentagon already knew the shot would not prevent those soldiers from getting infected, getting sick, or infecting their unit members. In August 2021, it was widely known by data analysts and health officials that the mRNA vaccines were *"leaky"*—they reduced symptom severity (temporarily) but failed to provide the sterilizing immunity necessary to stop the spread of the virus. The mandate was issued *after* this failure was confirmed.
2. Yes, the Biden administration gave a foolish order that should have been illegal, and punished patriotic Americans who rightfully refused the order, as was later determined in court.
Do you want the receipts, Captain?
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:36 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
1. The evidence/research at the time showed the vaccines to be 90 -%+ effective 2. I don’t think politics played a role. Remember this happened under the Biden admin.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 1:33 PM *To: *Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com>, bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt <engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby < regoldsby@msn.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively < mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com> *Subject: *Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Was there enough scientific evidence sufficient to have known better available at the time the orders were given to have known better? Were the orders carried out to deliberately conduct a political purge of loyal Americans opposed to Democrat policies?
I am unwilling to jump on your bandwagon, Marc, until these questions can be answered to my satisfaction.
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 1:24 PM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
Yup, one of the most precious things in my medical record was my shot record. Since I went to a lot of places the former and now current president called feces holes, the list of vaccinations that I received was long. Sometimes I’d say, I don’t need it ‘cuz I just had it two or three years ago. That excuse fell on deaf ears.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *"douglasburnett1972@gmail.com" <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 12:21 PM *To: *'Lou Fifer' <louisfifer@gmail.com>, Marc Liebman < marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc: *'bruce valley' <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, 'Bruce Engelhardt' < engelharbb@hotmail.com>, 'Rich-Diana Goldsby' <regoldsby@msn.com>, 'Dan' < gator41@allmail.net>, 'Al Shively' <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, 'Jock Brownfield' <coltjock64@gmail.com>, 'Jim Spillman' <flyingator68@gmail.com>, 'James Lowder' <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *RE: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
I recall Desert Storm where I was recalled with my MSC unit for one year. All those deploying to the theater were required to take a ghastly anthrax vaccine as it was anticipated that Sadam Hussain would use biological weapons against our forces. There was no option to decline the vaccine other than being expelled from the armed forces voluntarily or by the UCMJ for disobeying a lawful order. Covid shots fall in the same legal regime, a lawful order.
*From:* Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 26, 2025 12:18 PM *To:* Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> *Cc:* bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>; Bruce Engelhardt < engelharbb@hotmail.com>; Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>; Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>; Dan <gator41@allmail.net>; Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>; Jock Brownfield < coltjock64@gmail.com>; Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>; James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject:* Re: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
Of course you are right, Marc, again. But is so saying, we must face the bigger issues of imposing chemical vaccines on women service members who may be or are pregnant and on any service member who may closet or develop a moral or religious objection to vaccines. I know that we all took our shots as proscribed "back in the day" but unfortunately (or realistically) today's recruits (Officer - Enlisted - Women - Religious) are of different stripes with different needs and sometimes wildly differing points of view.
In many cases in my daily quest to study USN History, I wish for the simpler times of our Fathers' service, but a little voice on my shoulder tells me that we can never relive the past. Thus to hold today's military to locked precedents of expected behavior is likely to face continue strife. I don't like it - and we none can fully appreciate the differences - but our times of service are over, well served, and we are now retired to moaning and opining "on the beach". In that respect it is good that we have this open forum to "cry in our beer" among like-minded friends, and to disagree based on our individual experiences, but in truth we are beyond the efficacy of making anything but observations.
*Lou*
On Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 8:57 AM Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com> wrote:
All,
I’ll say it again. All your rationale is in hindsight. These men refused to obey a lawful order. Period, end of statement. Everything else is peripheral nonsense.
As such, we all know that in the Navy we have the opportunity to refuse a legal order or a set of orders once. If one does, then resignation or retirement follows.
Marc Liebman
https://www.facebook.com/marcliebmanauthor/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_sDoFQM5wupNaCeGIvKL1g
*From: *Lou Fifer <louisfifer@gmail.com> *Date: *Wednesday, November 26, 2025 at 10:32 AM *To: *bruce valley <brucevalley@earthlink.net>, Bruce Engelhardt < engelharbb@hotmail.com>, Douglas Burnett <douglasburnett1972@gmail.com>, Rich-Diana Goldsby <regoldsby@msn.com>, Marc Liebman <marc@marcliebman.com>, Dan <gator41@allmail.net>, Al Shively <mooseshively@earthlink.net>, Jock Brownfield <coltjock64@gmail.com>, Jim Spillman <flyingator68@gmail.com>, James Lowder <lowderjf@gmail.com> *Subject: *Fwd: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate
At a time when we need more, and to retain those we have in uniform, the politicos chose the opportunity to make a silly stand against our military with no concern for the welfare of our uniformed services or the defense of our country. This is another example of the bottomless Dem-Lib-Left perfidy and self-centered grasping at anything to stay in power.
I hope the Secretaries of our Service Branches take up this stupid miscarriage of power and quickly re-sign all those who chose personal well being over the blanket mandate to take the worthless Covid shots. We now know that the shots were naught but a means to control our country through local mandates and censures of citizens.
What has become of our Republic when such political ne're do wells are empowered or not restrained from taking unwarranted actions against our citizens?
*Lou*
---------- Forwarded message --------- From: *Brian Miller* <brianjmiller1977@gmail.com> Date: Wed, Nov 26, 2025 at 4:07 AM Subject: [Helobubbas] Re: Exclusive: War Dept. Battles Internal Resistance To Reinstate 86 Soldiers Ejected By Covid Shot Mandate To: <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> Cc: HeloBubbas <helobubbas@helobubbas.com>
It was always insane to me that the people in charge, whether in uniform or not, have to struggle through an inept, lazy, and hostile bureaucracy designed to do nothing more than stand in the way.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2025 at 7:00 PM <mgbrattland@gerlecreek.com> wrote:
'I tasked in no uncertain terms to the services that they will treat each of the members with the dignity that they deserve,' War Undersecretary Anthony Tata told The Federalist. https://thefederalist.com/2025/11/25/exclusive-war-dept-battles-internal-res...
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Jim
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Jim
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participants (5)
-
ahaefner＠aol.com -
Harold Brattland -
James Lowder -
Lou Fifer -
Marc Liebman